Some of the latest testimonials about vBulletin 5 from license holders. Summary, do not buy!
You may have noticed today (August 8th) we attempted to give you users some much wanted change to the forums. What better way than to get you guys the latest and greatest: vBulletin 5!
Boy was I wrong. After purchasing and then slaving away at getting it up and running (it took me 8 straight hours through the night to get it up) all it did was give us troubles. vBulletin 5 is so poorly coded that we were forced to revert back to the current forum you’re on this very moment.
I wanted it to work, I truly did. However the staff and I decided that it was just impossible. vBulletin 5 is riddled with bugs and poor coding, everywhere we looked there was something going wrong or something missing, it was truly horrific. I was genuinely upset that I put the forum in this position, I felt like I was screwing everyone over even though at my heart I was trying to just give some change.
But we’re back! And I managed to keep the damage to a minimum. All we lost was essentially a couple of posts from the vBulletin 5 version of the site, which were basically all complaints anyway.
If something is wrong with your account please let me know as soon as possible, I’m pretty sure I recovered everything correctly but, as we learned with vb5, you just never know what’s going to happen.
Thanks for sticking through it, and hey! Modio was only down for like 10 minutes anyway, so that’s a plus!
Have you tried using vBulletin 5? It’s the worst written piece of crap I have ever seen in my life.
I have seen my fair share of poorly written applications in my lifetime, but this by far is the worst I’ve seen. This blunder makes vBulletin 4.0 look extremely well thought out. I would rather recommend an open source application that’s bug infested over vBulletin 5.
To name a few small problems:
Performance – What the hell is going on? It’s slower than molasses. It is so slow even Internet Brands’s very own vBulletin staff have started complaining that the performance is pathetic.
Comments – Were the idiots even thinking when they implemented this? It is a black plague to communities. It will disrupt and destroy communities. It is also one of the worst possible implemented posts.
Bugs – vBulletin 5 is worst than a infestation of bed bugs.
Don’t buy it. Save your money. Save your pain. Save your frustration. Save your headaches.
If you wanted your money back, you could not get it back. People learned the hard way. Don’t let this happen to you.
We’ve been both busy, but we have not stopped watching the disaster that is known as Internet Brands. If you have not played with their 25, 26, or whatever beta for the fifth generation vBulletin, don’t bother.
It was painful. Torture. It should be considered as cruel and unusual punishment to use vBulletin 5.
It’s sluggish. It’s counter intuitive. It’s disorganized. It’s a nuisance. It’s a blight to the internet. It should be condemned.
Letters to the Editor
We received this email to our inbox a while back. We decided to protect the identity of the individual and wait before publishing the email. However, sufficient time has since passed to allow us to publish the email without allowing Internet Brands to identify the individual.
From John Doe:
I resigned yesterday after (several) crappy months at the hellhole that is IB, and wanted to say thanks for putting up your blog, which I came across today. It’s made for good reading.
If it makes you feel any better, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen more concentrated incompetence than in my time at IB.
Well John, I would say since sending in your email, Internet Brands has made incompetence an art form.
vBulletin today is only a shadow of its former self. The best part that’s left of it is its name. Gone are the days of being an industry trendsetter. Gone are the days of producing quality programming code and architecture. Gone are the days of quality product development.
My recommendation to anyone who still follows this blog: Leave Internet Brands. Leave vBulletin. Get out now.
It’s clear that the great and mighty empire known as vBulletin is sinking. It’s taking on water so quickly it’s sinking faster than any one person can fix it. Where are the days of where staff were actually were civil, professional and respectful? Gone. I watch quietly from the sideline as vBulletin Developer advocates, such as Paul M, make snide, belligerent, condescending, disrespectful and unprofessional comments day in and day out to customers who disapprove or are concerned about the development path vBulletin is taking. As an IT auditor, I would be fired on the spot for making any comment that is less than professional to any prospective or existing client.
These remarks serve as a gauge, a reflection on the confidence of the product Internet Brands is building. Simply put: the staff has no faith in the product. They fear the customer. They fear customer’s voting with their wallet. They FEAR YOU. They know what you probably don’t suspect. Internet Brands is bleeding money and the more we speak up, customers are paying heed to what’s out there. There are a multitude of excellent alternatives out there that exceed the capabilities of vBulletin 4 and vBulletin 5 Connect. Customers are leaving in droves to alternative solutions whether it be XenForo, Invision Power Board, or alternative solutions. Many former mega vBulletin customers are finally leaving quietly and taking their entire sites away from vBulletin. Take a look at AppleInsider.com. They once ran a vBulletin forum. It is now powered by Invision Power Board.
For those of you who want to stay, take care of yourselves. Internet Brands has recently taken on a campaign to censor what customers are able to say. Gone are the days where you have the free speech of a republic. Instead what you see is Internet Brands brutality with customers and posts mysteriously disappearing. It is a police state. A regime that terrorizes its own customers. Take a look at the level of censure that’s happening behind the scenes.
Customers standing up for themselves and a product they passionately want to see succeed are being punished. The level of discontent is rising. The pressure is now being applied to Internet Brands. Goodwill, faith, and trust are commodities that are not respected.
Stop being sheep vBulletin customers. Internet Brands’ is completely in denial. Don’t be in denial too.
I’ve been using vb4.x since it came out and was never really very happy using that software, I much prefered vb3.x as it felt much more like forum software, self contained, it essentially did as it was meant to, giving me room to do all the other bits like CMSs, article scripts, galleries, etc myself should I need or want them. Version 4 always felt too much like it was trying to be something more than it actually was, trying to be too big and too clever, blogs, CMSs, Groups, changable profiles, etc, etc, way too much, not done well enough and for the most part, extremely confusing for the average visitor, just wanting to join, have a chat, get the information they want and general simple stuff like that, not need to read a manual before they could get started and that’s what it has felt like using vb4.x…. To me, vB4.x has struggled, it has never been the completed product and it has never felt like it has reached anywhere near the level it should have. I remember the jump from vb2 to vb3, now that was exciting, that was a real step forward, that saw FORUM software improve, become more usable, offer more to the end user and simply continue being what it was, but better, vb4.x besides using newer coding practices felt like a massive step backwards, sure it offered more functionality and bits of AJAX to make things feel smoother, but it has been a real let down….
So…. Moving on to vB5 which I know is just a “beta” version at the moment, but seriously, i’m gobsmacked… It should not even be at alpha stage looking at it, never mind showing as a demo version and available for customers to buy, download and install… But my biggest gripe, is that it simply does not look, feel or act like forum software any more. It feels like a poor clone of Facebook and no amount of beta versions is going to change that, because it looks like that is the way it has been designed.
I’d love to give feedback on all of the features, but there’s next to nothing to cover. I’ve installed a completely fresh copy onto my server and have had a good look around the back end, the admincp, the settings, etc, etc and it just feels and acts horribly. I’ve used SMF which is free and that feels more professional than this release. It simply should never have been put anywhere near the public and I feel that I have completely wasted money, because no matter how long I wait, I don’t want a bolt on for Facebook, a Facebook clone, or just some other random clunky social network… If I wanted that, I could have gone to one of the many specific social network clone scripts that are out there. vBulletin is supposed to be forum software and sadly in my mind, you have killed it and that will become very apparant as customers run to the other forum software providers, who actually do as their customers want, instead of providing what you demand the customers use. Loyalty only goes so far…
Suffice to say… I’ll be uninstalling vb5 and it will sit there gathering dust, until such time as it becomes a proper functional forum solution, which sadly I suspect will never happen, as it has gone too far down the social network path now… Such a shame, this used to be a fantastic bit of software, but now it is just a shell of it’s former self.
The biggest shame for me is this:
The vBulletin 3.8 forums will remain active for use for the foreseeable future for support purposes. However please note that vBulletin 3.8 is considered end of life. This means that it will not have further bug-fix release or new functionality added and may not have any future security patches. We will evaluate security issues if they are received.
As that means I have to continue version 4, or run the risk of security holes being found and exploited.
Extremly dissapointing, expected better, should have known.
Update: Suffice to say, I have now looked closely at Beta 11, but I am still feeling very cold about the product. This feels like the biggest step backwards of any script i’ve ever handed over money for.
I really hope that you guys plan on supporting vb4 with security patches for the next few years, because there’s no chance in hell of me installing vb5 in the state it is and I still seriously doubt that going from beta 11 to gold is going to change that view, even though i’ve already handed over more than £200 to renew the licences for the lifetime of vb5.
So I looked into PHP errorlog then into its files and I saw… I dunno how to call it? Massive pile of dung?
It looks to me that vB5 code has been writen by guys who only just recently started learning PHP. No matter which file I open, I am suprised by some poor code that was written by amateour who had no idea, experience or knowledge of solution of problem at hand. IPB 2.0 that was released back in 2004 is years ahead of vBulletin 5 code.
Centralised input processing in vB5 is non-existant. Every sane application has some middleware between your application and request’s GET and POST variables… but this is not sane application. This is “write boilerplate(boilerplate($_REQUEST[‘meh’]), boilerplate, boilerplate::boilerplate(boilerplate->boilerplate())) every time you process request” type of application.
phpDoc, php standard for documenting code by comments?
/**Upload a photo. Return an edit block and the photo URL.
*
**/
Notexistant.
Unified coding standard?
/**Upload a photo. Return an edit block and the photo URL.
*
**/
…
/** This method uploads an image and sets it as the logo in one step **/
…
/**
* @static
* When current lang charset isn’t the one in http content_type header
* this method will convert All Ajax $_POST data into current language charset
*/
None. *(and btw, last one is not correct phpDoc method documentation)
(This one would require me to overstep bounds of quote to prove to those who dont have access to vBulletin code so you have to give me credit of trust.)
vBulletin 5 codebase is neither modern or object-oriented. Best way to descibe this code is to call it php 4 without reference assigment (“&=”) operator. Code in “include” directory is object-oriented (it even follows PSR-0 standard!), however majority of it looks more like set of functions that were put together in single container for easier access via autoloading than real objects. On opposide side of spectrum you have “core” directory which is procedural. Why? Who the hell writes “MVC” code (I am generous here) then goes “screw it, we will keep busines logic in procedural files”?
From reading their code I am getting idea that it was writen by people who adressed programming issues by mimicking other people code. They wanted “smart” way of handling data manipulation so they propably took idea from IPB’s 2.3 API’s. They wanted smart autoloading so they propably looked up xF’s (and by proxy Zend Framework) PSR-0 implementation. They wanted to write OOP code, but they didnt know what that really means so they packed their functions together in classess. They didnt had time to learn of flaws in PHP string manipulation functions which would force them to write input middleware and sanitize it for stuff like null bytes. They didnt know php5 has mb_string as standard lib for working on multibyte strings to they writed their own vb5_String class. Everybody has Auth class but they couldnt understand why one uses auth class in code so they made their own vb5_Auth which does nothing besides setting cookies on user’s sign-in and returning redirect link after successful sign-in. There is no logic in this class.
I see no greater scheme of things in vBulletin 5. By looks of code I can say that it was writen by group of programmers who had no workflow organisation, project plan and very different (usually low) skill levels. Lots of code was writen in hopes for best and without any backup plan. In many places they are using $_REQUEST variables without checking if those exist. If they do, its great. If not… well, depending on your php.ini and error_reporting PHP wont complain… unless its to php error log which eventually will be flooded with interpreter notices.
If I was to use vBulletin 5 code as benchmark of IB capabilities, I would make sure this company never gets any money from me and would stay off from their products. Internet Brands is network counterpart of ’96s Bethesda software (Google Buggerfall if you care). I see no care about product quality in IB work, only rush to people wallets packed in corporate marketing.
Finally this code also makes IB claims that xF “stands on the shoulders of more than a decade of development by Jelsoft” laughtable. Decade of development and best you could do is this pile of crap? You really have balls to rip people off like that.
Really, vBulletin 5 feels like aftertime project of some amateur who was using old PHP tutorials as source of knowledge, NOT corporation-backed product aimed to compete on market… and this is happening in 2012,l five years after Zend Framework 1.0 was made avaiable to the public.
What a disaster, I cant even find a words to describe this situation.
Internet Brands acquires ForumRunner. But they also have competing products.
Well if you have not been observing the news, Internet Brands acquires mobile app developer Forum Runner.
Don’t get me wrong here, it’s definitely a win in the direction for Internet Brands, if you count also the additional bloat they now add to your forums, as well as maybe mediocre coding, dismal corporate culture, and did we forget competing products? Ooops?
The problem I see here is Internet Brands is bleeding. No, correction, they are hemorrhaging money like no other.
They’re barely getting their act together thanks to Allen Lin, however, they don’t know what to do! They’re caught, frozen, like deer in headlights. They have no sense of direction. They have no vision, no goals except money money money.
Plus they buy another application that while it adds to their portfolio, it also cannibalizes their own time, effort and energy at developing their products. It does not complement their products in anyway. There is no strategy. There is no corporate “synergy.”
Oh and don’t get me started on the pricing. They are raping customers wallets. Why? Because they don’t know how to spend it wisely. They are running up the credit cards to pay for the timeless strategy of throwing everything on the wall and hoping it sticks.
Well wake up Internet Brands. Wake up Hellman & Friedman. This is gross mismanagement. Any first year auditor would write this organization’s senior management up for this level incompetence.
Let’s face it. vBulletin has no shape. It is like this piece of liquid ooze, spreading all over the place trying to be good at everything. The reality is they suck at everything. They should be focusing on being excellent, superb at a few things, rather than be mediocre (which they have not attained mediocrity yet).
Just thought I would give a bit of a review and offer some insight in my decision to remove vBulletin from my site.
Perhaps you’re a potential future customer and are considering purchasing vBulletin 4 for a new project, I would respectfully suggest that you reconsider. I took over a site in the vBulletin golden era when Jelsoft were the owners and Kier Darby was lead developer, shortly after vBulletin 4 was being promoted. Being new to the forum game and looking at the list of features available I thought I was onto a sure winner and decided to purchase the product.
For well over a year I was happy enough, I had heard a lot of complaints in the hidden “licensed customer” forum but as a lot of the issues didn’t effect me I wasn’t too concerned, a lot of the time I even defended the software. One thing I began to notice though was all the new releases in the 4. series that would introduce a new feature but would then have to be patched and patched/upgraded over the next few point releases to actually be usable. You can imagine you can only upgrade so many times before you get bored and realise that you’re not actually adding anything useful to your site.
Anyway for whatever reason, probably after reading about it on here so much I decided to give XenForo ago, that’s an alternative paid forum product (for the uninitiated). Their whole forum is public, they don’t have a hidden forum for all the customer complaints, they don’t get many complaint at all actually. The difference in development, the entire ethos over there is a complete contrast to what’s happening within vBulletin at the moment. I’m rambling.
Point I’d like to really put across is that being on the inside, seeing the lack of development and vision and the disinterest for anything that would seem logical in terms of the future of the vBulletin product led me to a competitor within 24 months.
If you’re currently trying to decide if you should purchase vBulletin I would personally not recommend it.
Regards A Customer
PS My comments are strictly for the development and implementation of features and lack of vision in the core product. One excellent plus with the vBulletin team is their support staff and the individual developers themselves, they’re a credit to themselves in spite of the company.
Yes we’ve been away. Both Chronos and I have had our own personal lives to tend to. I was hit with a huge number of corporate audits that required my attention over the last ten months. My, how time has flown.
Needless to say, I’m still on the last few projects for the year, but I do want to take a moment to express my displeasure at the recent behavior exhibited by Internet Brands. An organization who mistreats its customers is one thing but going after ex-employees in the manner Internet Brands have is simply bad form, bad taste, unethical, and despicable.
The news I am referring to is Internet Brands seeking to go after Darren Gordon, a former developer of Jelsoft, Colin Frei, a former developer and customer service agent for Jelsoft, and Mert Kokceimam, who worked with vBulletin Solutions briefly.
As I sit here awaiting to catch my flight, I must say that I’m appalled at how Internet Brands is treating its former employees. Absolutely no loyalty. I equate it honestly to the dog that bites the hand that feeds it.
Shameful tactic. It’s not about business. It’s not about profit. It’s about respect. It’s about being professional.
Why are we having to go through all this nonsense? It’s because Internet Brands has mismanaged vBulletin, extremely disloyal to their own [Internet Brands] employees, tunnel vision, pride, and minimal software development experience.
Colin, Mert, Darren, we’re truly sympathetic with what you’re going through. It’s not fair. It’s not right. It should not being happening to you three.
An Open Letter to Ms. B. Lynn Walsh (part of our vBulletin Truth Series)
Dear Ms. Walsh:
My name is Veritas and I am a customer of Internet Brands and committed to finding the truth.
I own a vBulletin license and I must say I find it daring that you would orchestrate a lawsuit against your former employees given the circumstances of your own product lines. More to the point, I find this lawsuit, rather amusing. I must congratulate you on a job well done for expertly catching key details and organizing this ruse. Nothing has slipped by you. Let me explain further.
I took liberty of doing a quick Google search to see who you are and what your history is. For those reading this open letter, let me share with you what I’ve learned:
Internet Brands Website: Lynn Walsh is responsible for structuring and negotiating acquisitions and strategic partnerships and oversees all human resource, legal, and regulatory aspects of Internet Brands’ business.
Prior to joining Internet Brands in 2000, Walsh was a partner in the Technology group at Alston & Bird LLP in Atlanta, Georgia, where she specialized in public and private offerings of securities, mergers and acquisitions and corporate finance.
Previously, Walsh was a partner at Hunton & Williams in Atlanta. She received her B.A. from the University of Michigan and her J.D. from Wayne State University Law School.
Ms. Walsh has served as Executive Vice President of Corporate Development, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary since 2000. From 1998 to 2000, Ms. Walsh was a partner in the Technology group at Alston & Bird LLP in Atlanta, Georgia, where she specialized in public and private offerings of securities, mergers and acquisitions and corporate finance. From 1992 to 1998, Ms. Walsh was a partner in the Corporate and Securities group at Hunton & Williams LLP, in its Atlanta office. Ms. Walsh has a B.A. from the University of Michigan and a J.D. from Wayne State University Law School.
Something I found most interesting is that Alston & Bird LLP in Atlanta is the exact same law firm that filed the vBulletin copyright AND also filed the suit in the United States Central District Court of California. I really have to wonder if we were scratching the back of your former partners…hmm..
Granted a bit weak in the argument department, but let’s look at your wonderful declaration. Just remember your declaration is signed under the penalty of perjury that the above is true. After all, we must not tell lies!
So let’s start with argument 4.
“In Paragraph 21 of Darby’s declaration, he states that almost all of the witnesses in this action live and work in England. My understanding of the facts is different than Darby’s.
I find it extremely convenient that certain names of witness in the UK were left out. People like Darren Gordon, James Edward Limm, and others who worked at the Reading, UK office. Plus I also found it interesting one name was left out: your famous, disgruntled employee Scott MacVicar, who currently works with Facebook.
<sarcasm> I’m sure he’d love to fly down and provide expert testimony. Oh wait, but of course, Scott wouldn’t testify for you. He’d likely testify against you because of his first hand experience at how you do things at Internet Brands. No wonder you didn’t expect Scott to testify.</sarcasm>
Let’s look at item 5.
Based on my review of the allegations of the FAC (First Amended Complaint) and my knowledge of the employees of plaintiff and Internet Brands, I anticipate that California residents affiliated with defendants and the Xenforo website as their representatives here in California will testify in this action. I understand that Xenforo.com website domain is registered here in Westchester, California, where it maintains a physical presence and that it maintains a technical and administrative contact phone number with the California area code 661. Any witnesses concerning the activities of these technical and administrative representatives of Xenforo in California, would, in my estimation, have to reside here in California. I discuss this further in paragraphs 11 and 12 below.
I’m shocked at your broad statements, claiming that xenforo maintains a physical presence in California. Anyone can simply Google Search to discover what WHOISGUARD is. Even on the WHOISGUARD website it has Namecheap.com written all over it. In fact, even your own Exhibit A clearly says Registration Service is provided by Namecheap.com.
Do you expect me to believe just because I choose a domain registrar located elsewhere that we have a physical presence? Imagine the precedent that would set! Use a registrar like Godaddy (which of course Internet Brands uses) and now Godaddy is considered your registered agent? I think not! I’m sure even Internet Brands would not like that argument. Now you have legal obligations in not just Delaware, and California, but in Arizona too all because you used Godaddy’s Domain’s By Proxy service. But of course, as a lawyer, you’re detailed and meticulous and I’m sure you know what you’re doing. I’m sure you took great care to research what WHOISGUARD is. After all, you do use DomainsByProxy in Arizona.
Furthermore, we both know that ICANN requires us to maintain up to date contact information as part of our domain registrar. However, we also know that the big registrars do offer a privacy service which blocks people from. Essentially we know these registrations become “private” and that the registrar becomes a temporary owner of a domain. The registrar, in good faith, is expected not to seize the domain from you and will release it back into the custody of the original owner upon domain.
But of course, it is common knowledge. And we must not tell lies.
Moving on, item 8.
Based on my review of the allegations of the FAC, and my knowledge of the employees of plaintiff and Internet Brands, I anticipate Ray Morgan, Adrian Harris, Michael Anders and Fabian Schonholz, members of Mr. Rosenblum’s technology team for vBulletin will testify in this action. These Internet Brands employees were present for the meetings in El Segundo at which Darby is alleged to have improperly utilized plaintiff’s proprietary information and also were involved in and monitored the progress of Darby and his team of the development of the vBulletin software, and communicated with the entire vBulletin team about the development and implementation of the software features and improvements. Mr. Morgan is and was the General Manager of the vBulletin business team and so was often intimately involved in the matters giving rise to this dispute. All these gentlemen live and work in Southern California.
WHOA! Excuse me, Ms. Walsh, but isn’t that overreaching? In fact, I would argue you just LIED to the courts. You just committed perjury! Let me explain.
Let’s establish some timelines first.
First Visit by Kier to Internet Brands: September 3 to September 7, 2008
Second Visit By Kier to Internet Brands: End of September 2008.
Kier’s Resignation: June 19, 2009
Adrian Harris, while currently is the business manager for vBulletin, was PREVIOUSLY employed by Internet Brands, but as the community manager managing YOUR AUTOMOTIVE FORUMS. In fact, Adrian did NOT join the vBulletin Team until March 2010. In his blog entry, dated March 26, 2010, he said he was new to the vBulletin team. Let’s also not forget about this thread too. So tell me Ms. Walsh. What is a community manager of Automotive Forums doing in a closed door, vBulletin development meeting, in which technically is considered outside his normal duties? In fact, I’m willing to bet Mr. Harris was not permitted to attend the meeting, but more to the point, was NOT even AT the meeting! Unless Mr. Harris somehow traveled back in time one and a half years prior to attend that meeting somehow.
Let’s look at Fabian Schonholz. He’s currently a vice president of technology according to the vBulletin.com forums, but whoa, stop the presses, we have a problem too. In this post, dated April 14, 2010, Fabian noted that he recently started at Internet Brands and that for the last two weeks, he has been reading the forums and talking to the vBulletin team. So explain to me, Ms. Walsh, how does a Vice President of Technology, who was hired in 2010, attend a meeting in 2008? Again, that mystical Internet Brands time machine must come into play.
I’d like to remind you, Ms. Walsh, that on the 23rd of December, you signed, UNDER THE PENALTY OF PERJURY, under the laws of the United States of America, the the foregoing is true and correct. In fact, looking at item 8, I, an auditor, just impeached you as a witness and have discovered you committed perjury.
In fact, I can’t believe anything you’re saying now. Why? Because you just lied to the courts. But you are a former lawyer with Alston & Bird LLP, obtained a Juris Doctor at Wayne State University Law School. You were taught never to lie and commit perjury. After all, we must not tell lies! We must not tell lies to the courts!
I eagerly await your response Ms. Walsh. Have a wonderful week.
Sincerely,
Veritas.
P.S. Is there a particular reason why you are not registered with the California State Bar? If I’m not mistaken, under the California Rules of Court, Rule 9.46, in-house counsel is required to register with the California State Bar to practice law in California and must renew annually to be legally permitted to practice law in California.
Some of the latest testimonials about vBulletin 5 from license holders. Summary, do not buy!
